I’ve been noticing more and more that something really terrible and really wonderful seem to happen around the same time. This was particularly true for me this year on Thanksgiving weekend. I really detest this US holiday: the premise of it, of course, but also the food, the racist family members’ that are always hateful and present; really, the list goes on. So this year it was the best surprise that Sara was available to chat with me about her new book, Baveuse.
I first heard about Sara Sutterlin via her book I Wanted To Be The Knife put out by Metatron. It tore me up in the best way. So when I saw online via Electric Cereal that she would be publishing another book, Baveuse, I jumped at the chance to review it. It’s the kind of book that makes a person feel less alone as a woman, a poet, a human living on this planet. Sara is wonderful, generous, and humorous. And her poems, they’ll all open you in the best way. Make sure to purchase her book here if you haven’t already.
Elizabeth Schmuhl: Hey! It’s you! It’s me!
Sara Sutterlin: It’s happening!
E: First, thank you thank you for being available and open to this interview.
S: No problem. I have to work at one but my morning routine is always wake up early so I can have one or two hours in bed in a robe with the internet so this works out just fine.
E: One or two hours in bed w/ the internet is super nice in the am.
S: Yeah, it feels like a luxury!
E: Completely! This collection is amazing. I read and reread it one evening and you made me feel so much better. How did you put Baveuse together? In terms of timing, did you write certain poems first?
S: Thank you! It’s so nice to hear that. I had about 40% of the book already written. I write A LOT. I use Evernote to keep everything organized and so, I was like well, here’s almost half a book, these all kind of have a theme, I’ll keep writing. And it only took about two months for me to finish all of it.
E: Amazing. I think I connected so much to this book because the speaker feels so complex, like I feel. Can you speak to this complexity, especially in regards to being a woman?
S: My mom likes to talk about what a complex, difficult child I was and I think that really formed my identity as an adult and as a woman. She doesn’t say it in a negative way, per se, and in any case, it is just true: I was a difficult child and I am a difficult woman. I’m very interested in myself, in my own darkness, and in the darkness of others. There’s this intimacy in knowing someone’s worst parts, and I’m always looking for that. I love the idea of a Bad Woman, like Jenji Kohan has scenes in both OITNB and Weeds where a knowingly pregnant woman smokes cigarettes, drinks whiskey, and eats sushi. I think that explains, in a nutshell, how I feel about womanhood and myself.
E: Baveuse definitely reflects that. When I got to the end, where you dedicate Baveuse to “all women who wear their darkness proudly and speak it, too” I was like YES. I had a boyfriend in high school who told me I had a dark heart and at the time, I wasn’t able to laugh at it. But now I can.
S: Yeah, having a dark heart sounds great. I have one too. It’s not about cruelty, it’s about well roundness, it’s about being able to see it All.
E: That reminds me of the poem from one of your diary entries (July 2013): ” Noah is the kind of friend who wouldn’t share the last ambien with me. I love him for that, I love him because he is openly Bad, like me.” I love that so much because there’s not many people who are open with their badness, or open in general, and able to “see it all.” These journal / poems are really lovely and offer up an even more intimate side of the speaker. Can you tell me a little bit about them in terms of form / how they made their way into this collection?
S: Thanks. Yeah, it’s funny because Noah and I always talk about how we are Bad People and there’s this deep comfort, I think, that comes from finding another rotten one and being safe together in our Badness. Most of the entries are either pulled from my hand written journal, my Livejournal, which I kept from 2004-2012, and Tumblr text posts from my personal Tumblr. The diary section of the book is extremely personal; I didn’t edit ANYTHING and all the names are real. It’s the one part of the book I’m a little nervous about, when and if I get reactions about it.
E: That’s super interesting. I get nervous about poems like this too. I think that means they’re important and need to be shared so thank you so much for including these. I’m wondering about the “you” in a lot of the poems. Is it someone specific? Multiple people?
S: Yes, totally, that’s the reason they need to be shared. They’re the un-poetic, ugly details of one’s life. And yes; the “you” is people I’ve dated. A lot of it is about one person in particular, but most people I know have made an appearance in this book; everyone gets a moment.
E: I’m really curious about the cover art of Baveuse. Who drew it and chose the color? I have synesthesia and for me, the cover – all aspects of it– put me into the world of your book right away.
S: Lainey Racah did the cover art, and then Luis at Electric Cereal kind of put it together and we chose a background color and whatever. Lainey is a Tumblr-friend of mine who is smart and sexy and a little dark and the choice was kind of obvious for me, I wanted her to do it. Also because her work is not Very Known and I liked that. But the whole picking a book cover is an unnerving and frankly fucking annoying process. Luis and I had so many disagreements and he will laugh when he reads this because he knows it’s true and he knows how difficult and badgering I was the entire time. I wish it wasn’t so hard, because on one hand you want the book to sell, and look good in photos and have some aesthetic appeal but you also want it to be You. I’m glad you like it, and feel it is relevant with the book. It’s a relief to hear that.
E: I really appreciate the brevity of your poems. Some people want to force poets into writing long poems; have you experienced this at all? Or any “you should be this” from others in terms of being a poet / writer?
S: Oh yeah, I don’t think I fit into the writing community at all. I’ve noticed this in the past year, with my chapbook from Metatron coming out and then having to interact with other writers. Most of my friends are musicians, filmmakers, and visual artists. I wasn’t used to being around other writers and I didn’t love it, to be honest. I don’t like talking about literature; I very rarely submit to literary magazines or even read literary magazines save a few select good ones. I write short poems because I like to read short poetry. I lose focus with longer poems. There’s so many you “should be’s” in the literary community and I’m so defiant about it; I have a troll-y, fuck you nature to me. I can’t help it.
E: Maybe this is a little basic but the titles of your poems are wonderful, and I was wondering when they come to you: before or after writing the poem?? I just find so many poets fucking suck at titling their poems and you don’t.
S: Hahaha thank you. Honestly, like 50% of those titles are fucking tweets of mine. I’m that lazy. I’m also very good at one-liners. I love doing the titles. Some of them came after the poem, some of the poems were written based off a title; it really depends. But a lot of them are tweets.
E: That’s amazing. Tweets as poem titles !
S: Well, if we’re publishing entire books of tweets now….I can get away with titles, right? Haha. See, can’t help being snarky.
E: Fuck yes of course you can. It’s v smart of you. Are you working on another book right now? Basically where can I consume more of your wonderful work and how long do I have to wait for the next book?
S: I’m working on a lot of stuff right now. I have a big art book thing with Molly Soda; we hand picked our favorite artists of different mediums (visual art, sculpture, writing, photography, etc.) and paired them with someone, asking them to make work based off their partner’s work, but in their own medium. We have a photographer taking photos based off poetry, or a sculptor working off visual art. I’m excited about it. I got to feature some of my favorite people. I’m also writing some new stuff, which I post some of that on my Tumblr (sarasutterlin.tumblr.com), which will eventually turn into a book, but definitely not anytime soon. I want to be very choosy with this one.
E: I hear that so much. The art book sounds very amazing! Where are the artists based? And also do you make any other art?
S: From everywhere. Molly and I both picked like 5 or 6 people. Lauren Cook, Molly Matalon and Vivian Fu are in California, I think, and then Angie Seykora is a friend of mine in Omaha, Nebraska. There’s someone from Montreal, NYC, etc. So everywhere! In terms of other art…I used to draw, a lot, as a child and a teen, and I still like to doodle and draw little comix. But that’s nothing I’d ever show anyone. I’m not musically gifted at all. Pretty much writing is all I’ve got.
E: Now I really want to see your drawings.
S: That’ll definitely never happen, but I can tell you they’re creepy little black ink drawings.
E: Haha lol. Now even more so! Ok, also going back to something you mentioned early, there are some journals you read; what are they? What writers are you currently reading and / or what other art are you consuming?
S: I like Entropy Magazine, Adult Magazine. But really, I’m so picky. Most of it is filled with men’s work and I never read what men write. I can’t do it, and I don’t want to do it, either. It’s being read; me withdrawing from that role isn’t hurting anyone. I’m currently reading Chris Kraus’s Summer of Hate, which I fucking love. I’ve also been enjoying Bunny Rogers’s return to Tumblr, gifting us with her beautiful poems. Best poetry I’ve read all year has to be by Kimberly Alidio, she’s a GENIUS. Other art? Does hate-watching How to Get Aawy with Murder while eating chicken strips count? Because that’s kind of what I’ve been doing. Oh, and I watch A LOT of video interviews. Sometimes with people I love, like Zadie Smith or Jenji Kohan or whatever, and sometimes with people I despise, like Ben Affleck. It’s such an interesting role, to be the audience to an interview. It forces you to focus in a very new, empathetic way. I love it
E: I really love that you hate-watch interviews too. I sometimes hate-listen to crazy fundamentalist radio just to test myself. Maybe this is me being Bad? I dunno.
S: I know a lot of people who do that exact thing, and strangely, they’re all American.
E: Really?
S: I think it’s a very American thing to do. Because your politics are on such a spotlight, have become such a fucking sport, it’s a boxing match and both sides are fascinating. There’s such a violence to it. Maybe, I like feeling disgust and anger; anger is my favorite emotion, my most productive one so yeah, maybe it is being Bad and liking the feeling of a challenge.
E: You are Canadian, correct? Have you lived elsewhere?
S: I am Québécoise, which also means I’m Canadian but I most often reply to the question “are you Canadian” with “I live in Quebec” because we are different, the culture’s different than say, in, Winnipeg, for example. I’ve lived in the US though, for extended periods of time. Mostly in Omaha.
E: How has that, where you’ve lived, where you’re from, influenced your work? Was the choice to include poems in French yours?
S: I don’t know if it has influenced my work, like I’m certain it has but I don’t know how it has. I write about Omaha more than Montreal because there’s this great feeling of alien-ness and being an Outsider there that’s very conductive to writing. Yes it was my choice. It was very important to me, in fact.
French is my first language; it’s the language I love and think in; it’s the language that comes out when I’m angry. My ex boyfriend and I joke a lot about how I said Je t’aime first, not I love you. Even though he was an English speaking American w/ no Trench knowledge. but that’s how it had to come out.
E: That’s very beautiful. What haven’t I asked you yet that you wish I would? Or, in the spirit of what we chatted about above, what are you hoping I don’t ask you? Also, what’s the Baddest thing you’ve done?
S: I think you know that’s unanswerable, probably, like I couldn’t think of the worst worst thing. I’ve done very petty shit: I’m a thrower of tantrums and I love throwing a fit, crying in public. I’ve been very shitty to a lot of people, and I think and know a lot of people resent that. I love chaos, but my chaos should always be personal; I shouldn’t drag people, people I love, into it. I love that you asked that, by the way, the what question do you not want me to ask thing. I don’t know. I hate routine questions. I hate the what’s your writing process questions even though I *know* it has to be asked. I welcome and encourage challenging questions.
E: ☺ About chaos: I’m very into the idea that everything is chaos all the time; there’s this great quote: “We are floating in a medium of vast extent, always drifting uncertainly, blown to and fro…Nothing stands still for us. This is our natural state and yet the state most contrary to our inclinations. We burn with desire to find a firm footing, an ultimate, lasting base on which to build a tower rising up to infinity, but our whole foundation cracks and the earth opens up into the depth of the abyss.”
You mentioning chaos made me think of that. But you bring up an interesting thing: personal chaos, and dragging people inside of it. Where does your writing / poems come into that equation? I’m guessing b/c they’re personal… well…what do you think?
S: That’s a cool quote; who said that? Where’s that from? I don’t know I’m not sure. I think some people have been upset about having their names mentioned and feel as though I am making them look bad and although that causes some stress on me, ultimately, I feel okay about it. To be written about, mostly, is to be cared about, and I don’t feel that’s dragging them into chaos as much as, say, knowing me in my day to day life can be chaotic and that’s the chaos I feel guilty for.
E: Pretty sure it’s Pascal. I bought this book called FRACTALS: http://amzn.to/1NcK3vv and it’s in there. They quote it as Woolf but I think that’s not right. So you yourself feel like the chaos? Because I feel that way too. So much. And I mean, really, since we’re all made out of atoms and they all move, we literally mix w/ each other so of course we’re bound to even physically get close to the chaos.
S: True, but it’s yeah, I don’t know, a feeling I’ve carried with me since I was young, that I’m a little terror, a lover of chaos and arguing and debating and heat; I love heat, human feelings, I hate small talk, I hate it, I always just want to talk about the worst things. but I’m sure so many other people feel this way too
E: You also have a book out w/ Metatron (who are fucking awesome); What was that experience like v/ your experience so far w/ Baveuse?
S: It was very different. I had a female editor at Metatron, Ashley, whom I love. Ashley is the sweetest human; she’s so sincere and understanding and hopeful. It was like being in womb, very safe. she knew what she was doing, and I could feel it, and I felt in total confidence with her. Luis at EC and I would butt heads a lot. I love him, though, he’s given me so much time and patience, he’s that sort of Good Man that lives to give, But, we’re not alike at all and my tendency to be on the defensive with men definitely made things more tense.
E: It’s thanksgiving weekend in the US and so I’m at my parents’ house. They’re out right now but my mother is the queen of small talk and it drives me bananas! it’s like this impulse in her went rancid in me, like I’m the opposite of her. your mom’s mentioned a few times in Baveuse. do you feel similar or very different from her?
ah yes ( about man v. woman above). I just fucking distrust men a lot, and also, I am kind of always on the defensive. The speaker in Baveuse seems defensive, but aware when she’s letting her guard down. I feel like as women, if we aren’t conscious of this, then we get taken the fuck advantage of really easily.
S: I love that “impulse in her went rancid in me.” Oh, we are the same person and it’s disgusting. It’s unbearable. I think the only difference is I’m more controlled in that I can, if need be, show no emotion. It’s very difficult for me, but I can do it, I can be cold and very detached, and she’s a true heart on her sleeve nature, very soft. I guess that’s how I am inside, but I have a outside defense. But we are very similar and it has caused a lot of tension between us, we don’t have the best relationship, but I enjoy her company and her candid talks, I like her honestly.
And yes, I am very defensive, always on guard, pretty cavalier about shit, too. I distrust all men except my father, and one other male person. But, yeah, totally, it incites even more defensiveness.
E: ah fuck. I’ve got to go to another family thing. It’s marathon Thanksgiving weekend. I seriously appreciate you taking the time to chat w/ me! And so many congratulations on Baveuse. It’s killer.
S: Yes of course! No problem. This was fun. Thank you!!
E: Thank you so much. All the x’s and o’s to you!
S: :))