Interview by Izel Villarba, find more of his work here. Photos by Kevin Condon, find more of his work here.
I first met photographer, Kevin Condon, a little over a year ago at a restaurant called Loncheria in Bushwick; though I must admit it feels like it’s been much, much longer – a “five year” year, as Kevin calls it. Since meeting him, I’ve come to know Kevin as a brilliant mind who’s particular and passionate about his opinions, his craft, his interests, and most importantly his friends. I’ve watched his career flourish within the scene, working with a plethora of local Brooklyn bands and beyond – many of which we cherish and champion here at Alt Citizen.
This past winter, on an evening outing at the bowling alley, Kevin tells me he’ll be pitching a music video to record label, Grand Jury, for one of their artists, Elliot Moss, who he’s shot before and is now close friends with. He’s a little nervous about their response but completely committed to the idea, wholeheartedly backed by Elliot who’s asked Kevin to co-direct the video with him. He begins to tell me, with full confidence and beat for beat, the story of the music video. As he’s practicing his pitch to me, I can see in my mind exactly how it’ll play out. Kevin’s words paint such a vivid picture and after he’s finished explaining, I can’t help but think that there’s no way in hell they’ll say no.
As of December 5th, the video for “Silver + Gold” I saw in my head that night at the bowling alley became something I could enjoy with multiple viewings as it premiered on YouTube. Cue Elliot Moss, the musician I knew nothing about until Kevin informed me of his prolific character. Diving into Elliot’s music, I found his style to have the sensibility of an ethereal dream. Each song brings you into a very specific, thoughtful headspace accompanied by deeply personal lyrics; seeing him live, especially, is the utmost definition of intimacy. Accompanying many of his songs are equally fascinating music videos. The video for his song, “Closedloop”, stood out to me as a huge technical feat. In it, there appears to be a helicopter with a massive light attached, drifting over various terrestrial landscapes and abandoned structures. Some shots appear be created in a studio with model sets. Later, after I get to meet and interview him, Elliot will tell me it was shot with drones and completely natural exterior shots, no models built or staged.
Moss has major roles in making his videos – from editing, coloring, and recently directing, the musician has a creative range that exceeds any singular medium. When the opportunity to interview him came up, I knew I had to take it just to be able to pick his incomparable brain. Of course, I couldn’t have approached this talk without Kevin and thought it’d be fun to pick the brain of a friend as well. I’m honored to have been able to mediate a conversation between two people whose work I admire and whose admiration for each other is so blatantly obvious. I learned how both artists approach and view their creativity differently. Seeing them banter with each other, it’s easy to see how their differences mesh so well to create the ideal, artistic, working dynamic. You’ll find our conversation below.
Elliot Moss performing in Brooklyn, photo by Kevin Condon
Kevin explained this briefly to me not too long ago, but what’s the story behind this collaboration?
Elliot: Someone on my label had introduced me to Kevin. I needed press photos and they ran dozens of peoples’ portfolios past me; his just stood out immediately as the perfect fit. Half way through that day shooting with him, we realized we really vibed well together creatively and when the opportunity to make a music video came up he was everyone’s first idea for a person to go in on that project.
Kevin: And then I thought I fucked up because I kind of bailed on the first opportunity to make one. It was one of those situations that I kept trying to write something that would be worth watching and work with the song, but everything kept coming up super trite from my end. It was embarrassing and I felt like I just couldn’t do it. At not quite the eleventh hour, I had to bow out because I didn’t want to make something of a lower quality for a song that’s so good. So Elliot did it by himself with his dad –
E: [Laughs]
K: – and it’s sick!
What song was that for?
E: That was for July 4.
K: Which was also the first song I was really attracted to on the record and I think that’s why I found it really hard to write for.
What aspects of each others work did you like that made you want to work with each other? What about Kevin’s photography and what about Elliot’s music?
K: The drama. I’m a film nerd, I like cinema. Elliot’s music is so cinematic because it all feels like it’s scoring something deeper and larger as opposed to a personal outcry. That’s fine too, but I just like the drama and I think that’s what I’m attracted to in photography, in music, so it was a pretty easy fit.
E: For me, I think it’s the amount of attention Kevin pays to contrast and making sure that something is stimulating even if it’s really minimal and simple. He finds a way to frame it and present it so it evokes a very poignant emotion. I’ll watch him not necessarily follow any rules, because that’s something not to be constrained within when you’re doing artistic photography, but instead wait for a visceral response; and when he finally achieves that on a deeper level he’s like, “Alright, we’re moving on! Next location.” That’s someone who’s approaching it as a true artist as opposed to a technician. An hour into the photoshoot I was like, “I gotta do whatever I can with this guy.”
Elliot by Kevin
What about your own crafts? How do you view your relationship with your medium?
E: Music is the chimney for my brain. Anything I’m feeling, at some point throughout the day, is translated the next day in either lyrics or a song; even some stupid beat that I’ll never put out. Constantly trying to exercise that muscle and building it up has always been important to me. Ever since I was able to run a computer, I’ve been making music. I feel like video more recently has been an outlet for me. This video that I’ve done with Kevin is the most I’ve accurately portrayed what I was feeling in a cinematic form to date. It’s been really nice to have a video function that well. Because before, I’ll make a video and there’s elements that I really like, but I’ll watch it a month later and see what I could’ve done to make it better. This is the first where I felt like it’s really snappy and crisp and I owe a lot of that to Kevin; he’s got this bird’s eye view at all times somehow that I don’t have.
K: You pay close attention to detail my friend.
Kevin, how do you feel about photography?
K: It’s the best job I’ve ever had. I love it. I came to it later in life.
You see it as more of a job than anything else?
K: Kind of. It’s a wonderful way to exist. I don’t really work to live, ya know? I’ve always been at odds with the things I’m doing because it never felt right. When I started shooting music all of a sudden I was like, “Okay, this makes sense”, and it was the best thing I’ve ever done. When I started realizing it was something you could value and trade and start turning it into a way to keep a roof over your head, keep food in your stomach, developing your craft, it just got to a point where I asked myself, “why would I do anything else?”. So photography has just been full throttle for me. I’ve been trying to work in music for over a decade, without hating myself. Really! It’s been tough. It wasn’t until a camera fell into my hands that I could say, “I got it”, and this is how I get to work with the art form that I care the most about. Any given day it’s a toss up between movies, books, and music but I don’t know…. Music is the inspiration behind the photography and that’s always going to be the thesis statement.
What do you hate about your crafts and what do you get out of directing video and working together that you couldn’t get out of your respective mediums?
E: I hate the last 5% of anything.
K: [Laughs]
E: Having to call something “done” is one of the hardest things for me. With music, in particular, I value so much the mastering because that’s someone else saying it’s done. For me, that authority and obeying it allows me to exist; stamping it shut and it’s finished. Even with the video, I’ll sit there tweaking each shot until the label’s screaming at me to upload it to YouTube. That part of making art is a big source of anxiety for me. I’m trying to get better at calling things done but that’s the thing I hate the most.
K: What do I hate about photography? To be honest, a sense of civil service. It’s a really cool job, it’s really fun. I’d like to feel like I was helping a little more than just enjoying myself, and that’s something that I’m hoping to implement into my work next year. As I find ways to be successful with this. I don’t ever want to stop what I’m doing, I’m focused on it and I love doing it, but I would say maybe it’s like being raised Catholic and having that guilt, not that I am [Catholic] but it lingers. I want to give back something if I’m getting to do things so lavish and exciting. So I think that’s my biggest regret with it because honestly I’ve had a lot of shitty jobs and getting to use a camera to do the day to day is so fucking cool and I’m not going to stop doing that. It’s great, I might move into directing more in the later years.
So what about making the video did you get that you couldn’t with photography? What was fulfilling about it?
K: Oh man, any time I make a video at some point you have to pitch it to everybody who’s involved. You see it and you know it works but you have to figure out how to explain it perfectly and you do that again and again with people. But getting to see it “work” might be the most rewarding creative experience I’ve had so far as an artist.
E: Dude, awww.
K: I remember being on the phone with your label, ranting, trying to explain it, trying to explain to seven people on a conference call, which was already really difficult… but we fucking nailed it though.
Yeah it seems like you guys definitely had a relationship where you could trust each other and have the same vision. How were the responsibilities delegated? Elliot, did Kevin need to tell you when certain shots were done?
K: Yeah I totally say when things are done.
E: In editing, there’d be a moment where Kevin would just be like, *claps* “there it is,” we just saw it flow correctly with the song.
K: We did the whole process together. Once we had the story, we sat, developed the storyboard, we scouted, last minute had a change of location — which was a way better location! — and then we co-directed, but really Elliot has an extremely intense knowledge of the gear we were using and precisely what abilities we had; which led for some really quick, easy talks with the DP, Will. That left me with some time to work with the story and the actors. Both of us had somebody covering the thing maybe the other had a weaker point on, and it was natural. We’ve never directed anything together. I’ve never directed anything with anybody!
E: I feel like we very much sort of filled the different roles automatically. At no point did we discuss like, “well you’ll handle this or I’ll handle that”. We happily trotted along doing our thing. Except I ran away in the car to get a shot without you once.
K: We started shooting at like 7 or 8 in the morning and wrapped around 6:30pm. We started cutting at 7:30pm and by noon the next day we had a rough cut finished and two days later we had the full thing submitted.
That’s insane.
K: It’s the fastest I’ve ever done any video ever.
E: So many green lights, it was really nice.
Kevin, as a photographer working behind the lens, how does your perspective change when you’re directing someone else to use the camera?
K: I love it. As a photographer, if you think your shot’s the best, you’re kind of a dick. I don’t think I’m always the best at what I do, I think my shots are good. I think people value them and I think my shots work better with some people than with others and that’s why I have a job, I love that. But realistically speaking, there are so many people that have insane eyes that I think could capture better shots. Will, the cinematographer, is amazing. He and I have worked together in the past; he’s shot for Bambara, a band I’ve worked with before, and that’s how we met. Having somebody who’s as razor focused as that dude and somebody in my corner [points to Elliot] who can speak to him about what we need, it’s beautiful. He’s grabbing these moments that I wouldn’t have the patience for as a photographer.
E: Yeah in the heat of the moment when everyone’s running around moving sandbags, C-stands, changing lights up, and you’re just trying to frame up a shot, I’m just so grateful to have someone whose only job is to run the camera and we can stand in front of the screen and tweak the shot as needed.
Elliot, how do you compare writing your own music to directing a team of people to make a video?
E: It’s pretty different because I work in what is essentially an isolated creative chamber. I have no outside influence whatsoever until the last stages of making music. Whereas with video, before it’s even fully conceptualized, you have people poking at it. Everyone needs to sign off on it because there’s going to be real money, real time put into this thing. If I have an idea for a song, I’m free to screw it up on my own time and nobody’s ever going to hear it if it’s no good. But if we make a bad video, it’s a lot worse. So I think it’s different in how the project comes to fruition but it’s similar in pacing. You want to quantize the video to the pacing and the cadence of the music, and have the busyness of the frame and the way it’s colored suit the sonic palette that shows up in the music. I think if those things don’t coalesce, you get this weird incongruity that makes it not function. I was just seeing green in my head the whole time I made the song so I was like, “I gotta color grade this green!”, and make it look murky. That was just one of the ways it mentally tied in, even if it only ever made sense for me.
K: I think we liked the word “swampy” when we were really trying to nail it down.
E: In the way you work with palettes in music, you work with palettes in video. Whether it be in the way that the timing works or the way the colors are put together. You have to find some constraints in order to make it creatively effective otherwise it’s just all over the place and too much.
You did an interview for Flood Magazine, a feature for July 4. You said you felt like this album was the first where you made no compromises in writing and making music for it. I feel like with co-directing, there inherently needs to be compromise if you’re going to be working with someone else on that magnitude. Do you feel like you had to compromise with Kevin?
K: I don’t think we fought over one thing.
E: It’s sort of surreal how well we get along. The only compromise was stuff that was budgetary, maybe a fight to have to cram a lot of stuff into a shoot day —
K: OH! The fucking sink shot!
E: What shot?
K: The sink shot!
E: Sink shot?
K: The sink shot in the kitchen.
E: Oh yeah, you don’t like the sink shot.
K: I mean I love the shot but it’s in the video because it was fought for.
E: Yeah I like that shot.
K: I think that was our biggest point of contention. It’s a beautiful shot, I would take the still and frame it. I don’t know if it makes sense in the video.
Do you feel like there was something each of you had to sacrifice for the video?
E: It’s less interesting, but no not really. Halfway through making the video we were like, “okay what are we doing for the next video?”
K: We hadn’t even done the video yet and I had already agreed to do the next one too. So we’ll both make the video for the next single as well, it’ll be fun.
What does it mean to have complete confidence in your practice?
K: Pfft, I don’t know… Do you?
E: No.
K: Full commitment is different from complete confidence.
E: I gravitate toward the areas that I’m not confident in because those are always the areas I can develop.
Do you ever feel like you’re in complete control?
K: No.
E: Not in complete control, but mixing is the thing I feel like I’m strongest at. I’ve been doing that since as long as I can remember. I feel like I can relax when it’s finally time to mix the tune. All the parts are there and things just need to be stacked up in a way that’s logical.
Is it a matter of comfortability or do you feel like you excel more when you’re uncomfortable, in a different environment?
E: Definitely being in a different environment makes you less comfortable. Like working in someone else’s studio and not being familiar with any of the equipment. Even if it’s things you’ve worked on before. It’s different speakers, it’s a different room, but that can yield more interesting results because you don’t gravitate towards the same comfy spots that maybe you would do subconsciously. I’ll find myself ending up at the same thing a little bit too often and then mix it up – whether it be selling the synth that causes me to go to the same place or making a conscious effort to divert. I would definitely opt to be uncomfortable than sit there and feel like I know what I’m doing because then it gets old.
How do you guys feel about social media?
K: I don’t know, I’m not the best at maintaining it. Especially as things go on. The busier I get, the more I forget about it, which is kind of ironic. As long as I’m getting work, I don’t care about it. There was a point where I did take it seriously and I think there’s a point where you have to. I don’t have a huge following or anything like that. I think Elliot might.
E: It’s not huge.
K: Social media is what it is, like how do you feel about people being impolite to you? It’s going to fucking happen. It doesn’t bother me. Is it something that benefits my day to day? Perspective man, sometimes you need to hear something impolite. I never used it for any marketing purposes.
E: I have different opinions about the big three. Facebook I completely don’t understand, I don’t know what to do with Facebook. The people promoting a show will announce it on there. I used to use it and now I don’t even use it for personal purposes. Twitter I can’t, I just can’t. But Instagram I like, I try to make the most of at least that. I follow a lot of artists that I think are cool and photographers that I think are cool.
K: I do use Instagram and I think I have a lot of work because of it, so I’m not fighting it. I just don’t think I’m as active of a participant as I once was.
E: I look at it as like whenever there’s a show or if there’s something I want to say, like announcing a new video, it’s kind of like putting a poster up on all the phone poles. But once I start to check it too much, I’ll stop myself.
K: I don’t leave the notifications on, it drives me crazy.
E: There’s an element of it, which I try not to think about, which is the social engineering that goes on.
Is there a consistent goal or aim with your work?
E: Back to that interview with Flood, this is the first record where I feel like I’ve really been able to tap into this raw, real honesty that was too scary before. I was younger when I made my first record in high school and I just didn’t know how to present the way I was feeling that wasn’t covered up in echoes and delays and paths and some way of dolling it up instead of saying, “this is what I’m feeling”. This new record took me a really long time to make, I don’t want to take that long again to make another record. But this one has an uncompromising honesty that I want to take into my work moving forward and always have that same level of exposure in everything that I do.
Kev?
K: Oh, the aim thing? It’s funny because that’s a phrase that caused me to move to New York. I didn’t move to New York with a purpose, particularly, and I liked it from a story I read that says “don’t aim so much”. It’s fine to know what game you’re playing, but to focus on the details and to get something right means that there’s so much pressure. If you hit what you’re aiming for, it’s still just luck. An aim is just hoping. There might be some skill behind it but “aim” is just another word for hoping that something happens. That’s not from me, just a story. It’s from Salinger, “Seymour: An Introduction”. That phrase and “life is moving from one holy land to another” were the two most profoundly impactful statements in that story for me. But yeah don’t aim so much. I was reading that around the time I decided to move to New York; just said, “fuck it”, and went. I figured something would happen.
Do you guys have any questions for each other?
K: You should ask him what he has coming on the horizon because it’s cool as fuck.
What do you have coming on the horizon Elliot?
E: Well as of 20 minutes ago, Kevin is co-directing? Or DP-ing? What are you doing?
K: Whatever you want to call it, I’m involved. But explain what the project is, it’s really cool.
E: We’re scaling up the record and recording a lot of the tunes with a string quartet and additional musicians. Zero computer business going on and it’s going to be the entire band in a black room with $(insane amount) worth of lights.
K: The light designer does the Super Bowl and VMA’s.
E: He’s one of the most dear and unbelievable people I know who’s put together this incredible light show for us. So it’s just going to be tracked, analogue, raw.
K: How large is the string section?
E: Just a quartet.
K: How many people are playing altogether on stage?
E: At most, seven at once.
K: How many cameras?
E: It’s a twelve camera shoot, which Kevin is excited about.
That sounds excellent.
K: Right?!
E: Then a couple more music videos that are out in production right now. Then we go on the road in February.
Album’s out in January right?
E: January 17th, finally.
How long have you been working on it?
E: Three years, and some of the songs – at least pieces of them – have been floating around for as long as I can remember. It just feels really good to box them all up and finally say, “here is this thing that I didn’t know how to say, and now I know how to say it.”
Elliot Moss’ latest album, “A Change in Diet”, is out now. You can listen to it below.
You can follow Elliot on tour, Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter.
You can follow Kevin on Instagram and his website.
